Senate Children and Youth Committee
December 6, 2024
Senator Bryan King Okay. We want to call this meeting to order. This meeting is about the Franklin County Prison situation and the possible prison that's going to be built there. And we appreciate some members in the audience coming all the way from Franklin County down here. So first off, I want to recognize in this presentation Miss Natalie Cadena. Is that right? Okay. And you're going to do a PowerPoint, so I'll just let you start and get ready and go right into it and then we'll get any questions afterwards. So you're recognized.
Natalie Cadena Distinguished members of the legislature, thank you very much for inviting me.
Senator Bryan King Okay, You'll need to turn that mic and probably get it a little closer to you a little bit. And if you hit the button.
Natalie Cadena Now, can you hear me?
Senator Bryan King Yes.
Natalie Cadena Okay. So especially thank you to Senator King for inviting the Franklin County and River Valley Coalition to speak to you today. It is no secret that we are resolutely opposed to the construction of a project of this scale on Mill Creek Mountain. It is also no secret that we have been vocal about our stance and our intent to get the message out to all Arkansans. As we stand before you today, we will present to you an emotional plea from a devastated community, a plea full of facts and data demonstrating that the site selection for this build was, at best, irresponsibly selected and, at worst, done so with nefarious intent.
We are emotional about this. Our community is suffering a collective grief. We were denied a voice in this process by the very people that we voted for. We were shocked, then sad, and now we are angry. But let me assure you that we would not be standing here today if we did not fully believe that building a prison on Mill Creek Mountain is bad for all Arkansans. As a community, we deeply understand the concept of sacrifice for the greater good. Everyone in here with us today has a story of sacrifice. Franklin County is home to patriotic, God loving people who care deeply about our country, our state, and especially the close knit communities of the River Valley. If building this prison among our citizens truly benefited Greater Arkansas, we as a reasonable people would be willing to collaborate in finding a location that more equitably shares both the burden and the benefit. However, we believe the site selection for this project is fundamentally flawed and will lead to failure.
Our intent today is to demonstrate that this deal simply does not make sense, even by the Board of Corrections' own metrics. The decision to spend almost $3 million on this land was based on a grossly inadequate site study. This location cannot sustain the labor force required to support a structure of this scale, nor is it suitable land to build on. While this issue is personal to us, it is ultimately about what is best for the state of Arkansas. We are committed to ensuring that decisions of this magnitude are made with integrity, transparency and the well-being of all Arkansans in mind. It's kind of spinning. Okay. Is there sound on that video? Okay.While the video clips may not play the sound, Mr. Profiri set out his criteria for this prison build to the Arkansas Legislative Council, which concluded the criteria listed as size, distance from an existing facility, suitable labor pool, availability of primary infrastructure and proximity to emergency services and medical facilities.
The site at Mill Creek Mountain meets two of those criteria: size and distance from another facility. Mill Creek Mountain is far from an ideal location for a prison in the River Valley. If the governor wants her prison initiative to succeed, she must consider putting all options on the table again. Benny Magnus once told 3,000 of us in Franklin County, "Mark my words, some of you will work here someday," implying that we would eventually learn to like it. The mountain is characterized by karst topography. This already elevates the construction costs.
The development of this scale is likely to disrupt the water table, potentially affecting the surrounding wells where the water-- Is that me? Well, that was a little delayed. Sorry. Development of this scale is likely to disrupt the water table, potentially affecting the surrounding wells and available water that farmers and ranchers rely on to sustain their lives.
Video Specific criteria associated with where that should be constructed.
Natalie Cadena The site assessment failed to adequately address the potential costs of developing karst land. The state spent nearly $3 million on land that was informally assessed and deemed to have no major concerns. When compared to the anticipated $1.5 billion cost of this prison, I guess $2 million, $3 million might seem insignificant, but it speaks volumes about the lack of due diligence in this process. This demonstrates the proximity of residents within a five mile radius of the proposed prison. What you see there are 200 of the approximately 600 homes that surround the prison site. It is not an exhaustive list, and none of these voters want the prison near their home for many reasons.
Video And the plan has to be suitable for construction of such a facility.
Natalie Cadena Yeah, that was the sound. It was playing automatically.
Senator Bryan King Do you have any more audio on any other presentations?
Speaker 5 I think there's quite a bit. That's why I'm--
Senator Bryan King Okay. We'll just take a few minutes here and try and get--
Video Employees that work at that facility, which means that the commute has to be reasonable from their homes and that.
Natalie Cadena So the commute times for this project make this significantly unsuitable for a site of this size. Highways 255, 96, 217, 215, 41 and 23 are all options for commuters. Many of those connections connect to Highway 22, which is the main highway between the most populated cities south of I-40. All are narrow and curvy, and vehicles suffer wear and tear due to the feed trucks, chicken trucks, farm equipment and gas trucks that frequent the roads. You have only two access points north of the river, the I-40 exit in Van Buren and the I-40 exit in Ozark.
Video Employees that work at that facility, which means that the commute has to be reasonable from--
Natalie Cadena So the total population for cities within 35 minutes drive time, which is what Profiri stated was a reasonable commute, is 30,800. The cities with the largest populations are an approximate 50 minute commute. The drive time from the ramp in Ozark is 30 minutes plus however long it takes you to get there. From Van Buren it is at least 45 minutes, with Russellville, Dardanelle, Waldron and Pottsville over an hour away. This means your largest population pools, which are towns of 3,000 people or more, are the furthest away from the build site. The minimum drive time for a town of that size is 30 minutes with Fort Smith, Van Buren, Alma, Clarksville and Russellville being 50 to 80 minutes or more away. The labor pool within a 35 minute commute is approximately 79.5% smaller compared to the labor pool within a 50 minute commute. This significant difference highlights the importance of choosing a labor pool closer to the larger communities.
Video The right location to allow for a workforce that can immediately staff that prison as well as a sustainable workforce that can maintain the facility.
Natalie Cadena With unemployment rates in the River Valley being among the lowest in the state, placing the bulk of the labor pool at such a distance with poorly maintained roads to travel on is another reason the site selection for this build is ill informed. Some newer statistics that we received yesterday also suggest that they did not account at all for the amount of vacant jobs that are currently in the area.
There are a little over 3,000 individuals who are unemployed in the labor shed, and there are 6,500 jobs available at this time. Poor roads, inadequate emergency services and limited utilities will drive up construction and operational costs. A cost estimate summary for a fire station that can support the demand of adding this facility in Franklin County is between $2.5 and $3.5 million to construct, $600,000 to $1.3 million for equipment and an annual staffing at $750,000 to $1.2 million.
Another grossly negligent assumption put in the site assessment is that there is adequate emergency services to help if needed. These photos depict the closest fire station to the site. Every single station in the closest communities rely solely on volunteer fire service. The investment needed to add their own to the prison or to require the communities to support them is another reason the site selection is astonishingly irresponsible.
Video The community has to embrace the fact that a prison would go into their community or near their community.
Natalie Cadena Statistics show that rural communities may initially experience an economic boost due to a prison being built in their area, but that long term outcomes for quality of life indicators decreased significantly over time. But we also want to bring solutions. Relocating the site to a more practical, centrally located area with existing emergency services and improved commuter access would significantly reduce the state's overall budgetary obligations compared to the current site. Additionally, it would enable future investments to be distributed more equitably among the affected school districts and communities, preventing any one location from shouldering a disproportionate share of the burden.
This graph shows a comparison of the projected population growth along the I-49 corridor in South Sebastian County to Waldron and the I-40 corridor Ozark to Van Buren. From 2024 to 2049, the I-49 corridor shows a 40% growth projection, significantly higher than the modest 15% projected in the I-40 corridor. The completion of the I-49 extension is expected to enhance regional connectivity, alleviate traffic congestion and stimulate economic development by providing improved access for businesses and residents. Some projections have the finish date at 2035, but most believe it will be completed by 2031.
Redirecting the nearly $3 million already invested in the Vesta property towards a more suitable project or selling it back to an entity or private landowners would represent a more responsible use of taxpayer dollars. From our perspective, all options should remain on the table. If the state insists on pursuing large scale economic development, the benefits and burdens should be equitably shared among all the affected communities. A retail development in Northwest Arkansas with similar soil composition, bedrock challenges and topography serves as a reference point. Excavation and fill were used instead of blasting to manage costs.
The dirt volume moved was 300,000 cubic yards total, 100,000 cubic yards removed onsite, and 200,000 cubic yards brought in. Upon encountering large scale rock composition, on site dirt removal increases to a cost of $225 per cubic yard on average in this region. That's the number breakdown for that site removal. But projected cost for the prison, if 60% of the prison site requires similar preparation, dirt work costs are estimated to exceed $100 million. At 225-- that should say 225 cubic yards, this estimate could easily increase another $45 million.
The lack of government transparency was one of the most devastating parts of this for us. We had no voice at all. We had no consultation. Our legislators, the people we voted in office to speak for us, did not know. There were false assurances during the subcommittee hearings. The state officials claimed no site had been selected, despite the location being under contract at the time. The dismissal of Congress. Residents were told they would learn to like it. Dismissal of concern. Sorry. Residents were told they would learn to like it, disregarding legitimate objections and local opposition.
Opaque budgeting. No detailed breakdown of the $470 million project estimate was provided, raising concerns about fiscal responsibility. And we still do not have an answer on where that money is coming from. Unaddressed infrastructure and workforce issues. Key logistical and economic challenges were not openly discussed or evaluated with stakeholders. Some things are worth fighting for. And Mill Creek Mountain, along with the communities that surround it, are certainly among those things. For those of us who call this place home, it represents more than land. It's our history, our heritage, and our way of life. We know our plea may seem small compared to the priorities of the state, but we ask that you pause for just a moment, picture the things in your life that you hold most sacred, the parts of your world that give it meaning being transformed into something you neither chose nor wanted, and having no voice in the decision. Just for a moment, we ask you to see this through our eyes.
Some of the people sitting in this room today provided these photos of their family members who settled that land in the late 1850s. This is a bad deal for every Arkansan. We know the stakes. We understand that many legislators approve of this prison and the site selection. There will be a lot of pressure from the governor's office to fast track through committees and break ground. But we implore you to examine this with a fine tooth comb.
At a minimum, demand a delay in the process so a thorough site assessment can be conducted before another dime of taxpayer money is spent. Franklin County will buy the land back or work with all of the River Valley to find a suitable site. But Mill Creek Mountain isn't it. If this deal is above ground, what does she need protection from? This is a bad deal for every Arkansan. I speak on behalf of the SC RVC and most in the greater community when I say that we have already claimed this victory no matter the outcome. Thank you for listening.
Senator Bryan King Okay. Thank you. And thank you for going through a lot of slides there. There's not very many people come down here and testify, go through that many slides and get right to the point and move on. So I appreciate your concerns. And as you know from the meeting, I represent the top part of Franklin County. Senator Stubblefield represents the other part where the actual proposed prison is-- I still say proposed prison-- is going to be located. And at the meeting, you went into the cost part of everything and you've given what legislators need and the people of Arkansas need is an idea of the community here because most people are not going to know these things, just like what we talked about.
I mean, Franklin County, Carroll County, and so my county is the same, the idea of any entity coming in and all of a sudden we're going to have 800 people come employ, it's not realistic. It doesn't matter if it's a steel mill. It doesn't matter if it was an auto plant. I mean, those type of things. So that's a big thing. And I appreciate your slides of showing the drive times to Fort Smith and where the community is. So, like I said, you've done a really good, detailed, thorough job of going through things. You talked about the topography part about like up there where you're going to hit rock.
And I mean, we've seen the pictures of the rock. In a lot of our area, you can't drop a fence post without hitting a rock. So is there anything outside of your slides that you want to talk about, like any questions that you think legislators need to know outside of your presentation, your thoughts?
Natalie Cadena Yes. I think we do want everybody to know that we are not collectively opposed to a prison, even in Franklin County. I mean, we would be open to discussing anything reasonable. We are opposed to a prison on Mill Creek Mountain. We have personal reasons for that. But when we started digging down into the data, it does not make sense for the state of Arkansas. When we got a map in our FOIA requests, we got maps of other sites that were being considered. And I did some comparison stuff. And there were many that were better options for a build of that scale. And why they didn't go with those I don't know. I don't know what the barriers were there, but it does seem that they did jump on the land coming available in Franklin County rather quickly. And the site assessment is showing that they didn't do several things, like, for example, excluding the labor pool numbers, the unfilled vacancies and things like that that already exist in Franklin County. None of that was considered in the site selection data.
Senator Bryan King And I think what people or the people of Arkansas need to know, and like I said up at the town hall, this is the reason. It's not so much in the county that I represent, but it's also in 2017, this crime crisis that we have, which we do have a crime crisis in a lot of ways in overcrowding. I mean, this started all the way back in 2011. This didn't pop up. So it's been a series of selection of bills that came through the legislature. And really, it's a lot of the bills they voted on and underfunding not taking care of the problem. And it was like every year it was like milk when it started smelling bad. And instead of dealing with it, they just kept sticking it back in the refrigerator to the point we're at now.
So if you look at some of the statistics that I've gotten, I've shared with you guys and I hope to share this when we have our upcoming session is because we're going to have to reset the argument. And I'd say it if it was Franklin County, I would say if it's any county in Arkansas, because right now from the Department of Corrections, two out of three inmates are originating basically from eight counties. So if we don't look at the overall picture of this, it's going to be Franklin County this time, and then in six, eight years, it's going to be another county and it's going to be another county until we have to overall look at the whole problem.
I mean, Senator Tucker's pointed out we have one of the largest incarceration rates in here. So with that and I know I have some more questions, I'm going to recognize Senator Leding if you have a question.
Senator Greg Leding I did, but also just a couple of comments. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I apologize. I walked a little bit late. You'd already introduced yourself. Is your last name, is it Cadena?
Natalie Cadena Cadena.
Senator Greg Leding Cadena, Cadena. All right. Well, thank you for being here this morning. I do want to echo that. I know this took a lot of time and it's not a short drive to get here, but I do appreciate you being here this morning and presenting so much information. I do wish more of our colleagues were here to hear it, but I appreciate those that are here. I don't represent any part of Franklin County, but I do have family in Altus and Ozark. And in fact, I was down in Altus just last week for the Thanksgiving dinner there at St Mary's. So down there quite often and I'm certainly sympathetic to what y'all are going through you. You answered my question that I was going to ask. It does seem like your chief objections are the process by which this specific site was selected and the specific site in question. I was going to ask if there are other locations in Franklin County that you'd be willing to consider. And you said that you're not opposed to a prison in Franklin County. It's just this specific site.
Natalie Cadena Yes. And for the reasons that we stated in the slideshow.
Senator Greg Leding And I missed it if you mentioned, did you name those other particular spots in the county?
Natalie Cadena No, there were no other sites that they had listed in Franklin County. They had several. They had Mulberry, Alma, Fort Smith, Greenwood, Huntington, Mansfield, Booneville. There were many other sites that they had mapped to make sure that they fit the criteria. And then when the Franklin County land became available, they added it. It wasn't even in the original assessment.
Senator Greg Leding I do think that's important to note that it's not necessarily-- people can be against this project and it's not that they're necessarily against building a prison. It's just the process by which it was selected. I do think communities should have been part of the process, but it's one thing for them to have been left out. It's a completely other thing for your own lawmakers, the people who represent you here, to have been left out of the process. So thank you, Mr. Chair.
Senator Bryan King Thank you. And I think one of the biggest problems we're having right now is a lot of the questions I'm sending the governor's office, I can't get answered. I mean, is that being a lot of the questions that you have-- and state your name whenever you speak-- are you getting your questions answered when you're asking specifics of anything?
Adam Watson Certainly. Adam Watson. I'm the chair for the Legal and Legislative Committee for the Coalition. Not only are questions not being answered, but FOIA requests are either being flatly denied or answered in a way that we know the answers are misleading because we've come by the documents we've asked for and then been told they don't exist. So the governor's office, despite their commitment to continue to engage the community now that they're talking to us, has not been forthcoming with information. Specific questions aren't being answered as far as budget, as far as site selection, as far as pretty much anything we ask.
Senator Bryan King Yeah. And that's one thing when I worked on in '17, looked at the prisons and what was happening before, and I mentioned at the meeting, when you look at Utah, their prison was about 275,000 per bed or 280,000 per bed. Alabama, for example, in 2021, they gave an estimate that for 1.3 billion, they were going to be able to build two 4,000 bed prisons. They're trying to get done with one of them right now. They're 40% or 50% done and they're estimated at 1.3 billion. So that's over 300,000 per bed. So that's why when the governor gave the estimate of 470 million for 3,000 beds, that's about 156,000. That's almost half the cost.
So I just now this morning I emailed Mr. Barker and copied Senator Stubblefield to know, we want to know what did you know and when did you know it? I mean, we're not even getting that. But we also need to know who gave you these estimates because they are so out of bounds from what's happening nationally or anything reasonable that we're seeing. So, I mean, hopefully we'll be able to get those answers. And as I say, the people that are going to be the most impacted by this should have been the first to know, not the last. So now we're still trying to find out the answer. If it is going to happen, you need to know the specifics of what are you going to put on the people of Franklin County. So, Senator Stubblefield, you're recognized.
Senator Gary Stubblefield So thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, I got on the phone last week and called a friend of mine in Blythe, California, where there's a large prison located on the California Arizona border. He's been there 40 years as a guard. He said, when I first came to Blythe, it was a thriving city. They had department stores, theaters, all types of amenities for people. It was a nice town, he said. 30 years later, it is a waste. You wouldn't recognize Blythe, California. And I asked him, I said, was it because of the prison that was built there? He said partly. But it was the families of the prisoners who moved to Blythe, who brought in contraband, all kinds of drugs to get into their family members.
And by the way, we still have that problem here. We, from what I understand, we arrested a Catholic priest at Tucker or Cummins, just three weeks ago for bringing dope into a prison. They take footballs and cut them open, fill them with fentanyl, throw them over the gates, the prisoner would get them in the morning. A lot of people don't know this. This all happens in prisons. A lot of these guys don't ever get unaddicted. I mean, they stay addicted because they find ways of getting it. And a lot of it's brought in by guards. Well, there's no question. You can ask. I know. I chair that committee. A lot of the people that work there bring in the narcotics.
But to go and put it in perspective, like Senator King said, there is no way, no way in this world that we can ever build a facility of this size for 300. In the FOIA papers I've got show a lot less than 470 million. They show in the 300's. We can't build this thing for $1 billion with the cost of materials and workers right now in the country and the inflation that's going on. There's no possible way. And when you look at the dynamics of Franklin County, especially in that area, a lot of retired people, a lot of people that are incapable of working as guards in a prison because most people have no clue what it's like. When you're moving prisoners from cell to cell or you're moving prisoners in vans-- and by the way, we bring guards in from Mississippi over to Brickey in eastern Arkansas because we can't find workers there.
And Charleston has a lot of-- I know I've lived there all my life-- we have a lot of people that are elderly who are not going to work as guards in prison. And I'm not sure there's a lot of young people that have a clue as to what it takes to work in a prison and have feces thrown in your face and spit in your face. You're not going to last very long. Our prison system has one of the highest turnover rates in the state agencies as far as people working there. So there's a lot of things to be considered. When you talk to prisons in other states, same problem. Same problem.
But what really bothered me about this whole thing more than even that was the fact that the people of Franklin County, including myself, were cut out from even knowing about something this large happening in our county. And that is one of the most un-American things I have heard since I've been down here. And I believe me, I've heard a lot. That was totally unnecessary. We should have been notified of it. In fact, I am of the belief that this information was known about back in July, maybe even June.
Natalie Cadena July 3rd.
Senator Gary Stubblefield And we were kept in the dark about it. That's not the way the Constitution works. That's just not the way. You have removed the voice of the people whom this will affect. And that's not the way this country-- that's not what this country was built on. So the cost of it, the effect of the people in western Arkansas and the mere fact that there were other places that were willing to donate land, who wanted the prison built there, that met the criteria of being 60 miles away from another prison facility, all of that was just discounted. They did not take any of those in consideration.
It had to be western Arkansas, but not Northwest Arkansas. The River Valley. You would have to go over to Oklahoma to pick up enough people to serve a prison of this size because it will take a thousand people. 800 people won't do it. Those figures are being thrown out there. It'll take a thousand staff workers to maintain a prison of this size and to build a waste disposal facility and then to have to run it eight miles to hook on to another one that we're not even sure is capable of handling that much waste.
There's so many unanswered questions that we don't know, and they're pushing this forward. And like I said, the funding alone is enough. All of you know what it costs to buy groceries. And everybody has to pay for that. So when you go build a house, you can't even build a garage for less than $20,000 nowadays. And there's a couple houses not far from this prison. I know one that probably cost $5 or $6 million. And there is no way you can build a prison like this for $300 or $400 million. No way. I'll have more to say, Mr. Chairman, when the time comes.
Senator Bryan King So when you had the meeting with the governor, they were saying it would take months and it would be a while before they do anything. Is that correct?
Senator Gary Stubblefield That's correct. [inaudible]
Senator Bryan King And you said it's a while. But the thing about it is, we're here now that there's already bulldozers on the place up there now.
Senator Gary Stubblefield There are bulldozers on the place?
Natalie Cadena Yes, sir.
Senator Bryan King That's what we're hearing. So, Representative Springer, you're recognized.
Representative Joy Springer Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm Joy Springer, representative for District 76. I live here in central Arkansas. Representative King and I, we serve on the Youth and Family Committee. So I thought I would come over and participate in this meeting and just say hello to you all and say thank you for your context. I have been contacted by several persons in your county about the prison, and I appreciate their contacting me.
However, I don't live in your district, but I think for you to bring the concern, I guess it had to do with some comments that were made in some committee meeting that I was involved in. And so they made contact with me. But I'm happy to see you all here. Thank you for that presentation. I thought you did a very good job in presenting the information to us, so I just wanted to say hello to you all. Glad to see you all here to have a discussion with us about what's taking place. So thank you and look forward to seeing you again.
Natalie Cadena Thank you. Thank you. And I did watch you when we had the General Assembly and they were talking about LEARNS, I loved watching you.
Senator Bryan King All right. Thank you. Senator Clark, you're recognized.
Senator Alan Clark Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I think lots of us take FOIA very seriously. And got a couple of questions. My experience with the governor's office up till now has not been anything but transparent, and I've had nothing to do with the prison. So are you able to validate what you said about the FOIA requests being unanswered or mis-answered.
Adam Watson If I can pull up one brief example for you, I'd be happy to. Just give me one second to find it.
Senator Bryan King I think Channel 5 or somebody tried to request something.
Adam Watson That was another one from a media source. I was just looking for one for myself individually. But just as an example, on November 13, I sent a FOIA request to the DOC. They confirmed that I was a Franklin County tax paying resident, that I was entitled to the information. They said my request was very broad and may take over the three day statutory period to respond to. I had five groups of questions in that request, from the period of June 1 through the date I sent it.
By the time they did respond to me, which was November 27, so over two weeks after the request, they stated affirmatively that between June 1st and November 13th, there were zero communications between the BOC and Banner Construction, that there were zero communications between the BOC, its chairman, and the DOC related to a new prison and that there were zero communications between the Board of Corrections or its chairman and Mr. Profiri. In all three of those categories, I think anybody in this state at this point could say that's patently false that those documents don't exist.
In response to one other questions about communications between the BOC and Lindsey Wallace, three email communications were produced that were one sided and incomplete. And again, that was over a six month request period. My last question was about reviews, analyses ,studies, anything regarding due diligence at the subject property. And the only response was to refer me to the link published on the DOC website of their site analysis, which we have since received further studies, further information, further emails that would be responsive to that request. So in my opinion, for all five of those categories, not only were they not responded to in the statutory time frame, they were incomplete. And for at least the first three categories, it's flat out impossible that those documents don't exist.
Senator Alan Clark Now, I understand your viewpoint, but let me go back to the first one.
Adam Watson Certainly.
Senator Alan Clark The first one was DOC?
Adam Watson Board of Corrections. I apologize.
Senator Alan Clark Board of Corrections.
Adam Watson I just had throat surgery. So if I'm not--
Senator Alan Clark Okay, I just want to be clear because I'm thinking DOC but it was BOC.
Adam Watson Board of Corrections and Vanner, the consulting company that was hired.
Senator Alan Clark Okay. The law allows if they let you know that it's going to take longer than the time frame to go longer.
Adam Watson And they did. They did, In all fairness.
Senator Alan Clark But beyond that, that was not the governor's office. That was the Board of Corrections.
Adam Watson That's correct. And my statements earlier regarding FOIA troubles that we've been having are government wide. Those weren't directed at the governor's office in particular outside of the News 5 FOIA.
Senator Alan Clark Well, that's why I was asking my questions because I heard you say-- and maybe I misheard-- the governor's office.
Adam Watson If I did say that it was a misstatement. I meant state agency.
Senator Alan Clark Okay. Because it's not forgivable that any of those mislead or not answer. That's what FOIA is about. And again, a lot of times we're hearing you. If we were hearing them, we might have a suitable answer to our question. And I think they should answer for that. But in clarity, though, it was not the governor's office.
Adam Watson No, you're exactly right. And just for full transparency, I intentionally left out any requests of the governor's office because they had already denied the 5 News FOIA and cited the AG's ruling that they were not going to be producing information. So I wasn't going to waste anybody's time asking for it.
Senator Alan Clark Yeah, well, and again, don't know. I didn't know anything about that. I've been out of the country for a couple of weeks and this is not my district, not my area. But you send me a FOIA request, you're not going to get an answer. You'll get an answer, that is that I'm not subject to FOIA. And there's a very good reason why the legislature is not subject to FOIA, or at least in most cases, not subject to FOIA. So I don't know but what the governor's answer-- again, since I'm completely unfamiliar that the governor's office's answer is correct, especially if they refer to the attorney general. But the others I am disappointed in. I shouldn't even say that. I would like to have answers because, again, they may very well have suitable answers as to why it happened. They may not. But I appreciate you bringing that to our attention.
Adam Watson Absolutely. And what I did find telling about this, which I didn't come prepared to talk about all of it today, so I haven't sent it to you. I am happy to do so. But what I found interesting is that this was not a denial of the request. It was a positive statement that the documents do not exist. That's what was more troubling.
Senator Alan Clark If that turns out to be true, that is very troubling, certainly.
Adam Watson And I'm happy to get you this information after the hearing.
Senator Alan Clark Thank you.
Adam Watson Thank you.
Senator Bryan King Senator Leding, you're recognized.
Senator Greg Leding Thank you, Mr. Chair. And again, thank you for this presentation. I assume it's going to be available on the legislative website as part of the materials this committee discussed today. But is it also available on the Franklin County and River Valley Coalition website?
Natalie Cadena Not this specific one, but I will make it available after this.
Senator Greg Leding How do we access that website? Is there a URL that's easy to remember? Or can people just--
Natalie Cadena If you scan that QR code. If you go on to any of our social media, anything, you should be able to get there. But I will happily email you the links.
Senator Greg Leding I just think in general, it's going to be good for people, even if you don't live in Franklin County to have access to this information. Because as we discussed, this prison is going to be built somewhere and that anybody, even if they don't live in Franklin County, should be aware of the process and get involved. I have a second question for the chair. When I reached out to Director Garrity at BLR a couple weeks ago to confirm that lawmakers would have to vote on the transfer of the land to the Department of Corrections, she confirmed that we would. But she wasn't yet sure which ALC subcommittee that vote would go through. Do you know if there's been an update to that? It's not a vote that's going to take place this month, right? Or do we know?
Senator Bryan King I don't know. We can try and find out that answer and see if it's up. Of course, the agenda for that is not out till right after next week. And a lot of times those things we don't know till.
Senator Greg Leding Til the last minute. Right. But with ALC coming, that week being the the week after next, I just want to make sure that none of us are caught flat footed. And that there's a vote coming up we all need to know about.
Adam Watson I don't know if I can give you any input right now on that piece, but I have some if I can.
Senator Bryan King Go ahead.
Adam Watson So our understanding from speaking with Senator Stubblefield and the rest of the representatives at the town hall was, you're exactly correct. The ADFC purchased the land and would be at the legislators' will transferring title to either the building committee or the DOC, whoever needed to be operating there. My FOIA request to the DOC was for the ADFA. Their chief counsel contacted me earlier this week and said that their intent is no longer to transfer title at the property, that that's not how the ADFA works.
They will retain title to the property in their own name and grant operating authority to whatever intergovernmental agency needs to be able to operate on the land while title remains with the ADFA. They could not answer a question based on FOIA. So I'm still waiting for the three day period to see if a document exists as far as a lease or operating document, something like that. I assume it does due to DOC operating bulldozers on the property right now. But it appears that the ADFA does not intend to have a vote through the legislature to transfer title.
Senator Bryan King Well, and that may be some of the ways that things get done down here. Like I said, when it comes to plumbing, a lot of times it's not straightforward for obvious reasons.
Adam Watson It was hard for me to find an answer to this question.
Senator Bryan King If you email me those questions, then I'll email them to the appropriate people and they'll copy Senator Stubblefield and Senator Leding and see if we can't get some answers. And I sent Senator Clark to the Channel 5 story about the governor's office denying the FOIA request. And so let me talk and I know we probably kind of want to wrap up and I know we're going to try and have some more meetings where the people of Arkansas understand a little bit more about this whole situation.
And I do think, honestly, that we need to look at the whole picture of Arkansas, because, as I said, when we have such a crime problem happen and we're going to have to address that problem, which is separate from the prison problem. But the water issue, up here in my district, in my area, water is a big issue. I have a lot of poultry houses, poultry plants that use a lot of water. What about the competition of water up there in that area? Can you touch on that again?
Natalie Cadena I can. So we for as long as I can remember, honestly, had water problems in Charleston specifically. I mean, Charleston had to go to Fort Smith to get water. That's been some better. But they're still looking at major problems in the city itself. There was a poultry operation that wished to expand its business close to the build site. They have six turkey houses and wanted to add six more and they were refused a permit due to lack of water, that it would not be able to sustain that.
Our understanding on the stats that were put into the site survey were that there was a 3 million gallon excess from River South and Ozark. However, when we consulted with Mayor Hall, she said that's not true. She said, I'll try to find the information for you. She said that when Butterball runs a 40 day cycle and they're in Ozark, they pray nothing breaks because it's a very, very volatile situation. And they do run short. So we don't know that there's an adequate water study that's been done. We know that they've contacted River South and they've contacted Fort Smith about water. But water has traditionally been an issue and it would be incredibly difficult to get water on that particular site.
Those surrounding ranches rely on wells and they dry up sometimes. And a lot of times, they're just very sensitive. So that's what we know about it right now. But we are waiting on more information from Mayor Hall about Ozark's particular numbers.
Senator Bryan King And that's what I appreciate you coming down here, because it's like-- I would say this, a lot of times you get told by agencies or the governor or whoever it is, and I've been under three different governors now. So let me just tell you, it always happens where they tell one story down here, everything's fine. But then when you learn from the local people up there, you get a different conflicting story. And that's why it is very critical.
And I hope Mr. Barker and the governor's office start answering, what kind of facility you're building for 3,000 beds, because if this water issue, once you get in, the water usage is not going to come to the end. And so once you invest in all this and all a sudden you find out you can't get enough water, well, then we're stuck. And that is my biggest thing is before we start this process, we're moving way too fast and we need to have a holistic approach to this thing of not just the state but also locally in the impact.
Because like I said, these prison building companies, when they get into the thing, they know once you're in the first 40, 50 million, you're in for as much as they want or it's going to take. And I will tell you, Alabama, for example, they're not even getting done with one prison what they thought was going to be able two just three short years ago. So I appreciate your testimony. Senator Leding, you got a question?
Senator Greg Leding Just one quick follow up. Based on Mr. Watson's comments, it sounds like lawmakers won't be voting on the transfer of land. But can we make sure that we confirm with BLR whether or not lawmakers will still need to vote on whether or not ADFA is able to grant this operational authority to whatever agency is going to be operating, to make sure that there's not a step that we missed.
Senator Bryan King Blake, can you help out with that? And we'll get Blake to help draft a question. We'll get it to Marty and the appropriate people. And Senate Stubblefield, you'd like to be copied on that too, wouldn't you? And we'll try and find out the answers to that, because if the land transfer is now staying with the building authority, then that may be something they're delaying either normal in the process or just to get around another vote.
Adam Watson Yeah, what's interesting is when the ADFA board approved the purchase of this land, their minutes reflect that their intent was to purchase the property for the purpose of transferring title to the DOC. Blake, I have notes on this that I'm happy to send to you to help your questions.
Senator Bryan King Okay. And maybe one of the things is we can get with the Board of Corrections to see what the water uses is and some of these other facilities where we can double check and get Audit maybe to find out the answers. Are you guys open to that, too, about trying to find out some of this? Okay. All right. I think we've covered enough right now from the start. I hope to have some more meetings on this before the session starts. And I know that I appreciate you guys coming down here and being thorough and being able to answer questions. And again, we'll try and see what happens after this meeting. And then after this, we will go from there. But I want to thank you for your testimony.
Do any more members have any more questions or anything? And Representative Springer, thanks for your questions earlier. You didn't know you were going to be famous in Franklin County, but you definitely are now. So anyway, but I want to thank you. And if there's no other questions, I'll call this meeting adjourned. Thank you.
Adam Watson Thank you for having us.
