House Judiciary: Dec. 11, 2025

Representative Carol Dalby Members, if you’ll begin taking your seats, we’re going to get started here in just a second. Good morning. House Judiciary will come to order. Chair sees a quorum. Our first order of business is the consideration to approve the September 30, 2025, meeting minutes. Do I have a motion? I have a motion. Is there a second? I have a second. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, please say aye. All opposed? Ayes have it. Motion carries. 

The next item of business, we’re going to move to our ISPs. Members, we have a hard stop this morning because Audit Exec starts at 1:30. And so we’ve got to be out by about 11:20. I can’t imagine that this is going to take all of our time, but both of the presenters for the ISP know that they’ll have roughly between 35 and 40 minutes. And if you have additional questions that would carry us past that time, just get with the bill sponsor or the ISP sponsor afterwards and ask your questions offline. 

But I just want to give everybody notice we do have a hard stop because we have a meeting that’s starting at 11:30 that we need to make sure people who want to get to that meeting can get to. So with that, we’re going to move to item C, the consideration for adoption of ISP 2025-041. Representative Brown, you’re recognized to come to the table and begin presenting your ISP. 

Representative Karilyn Brown Representative Karilyn Brown, District 67. I would like to bring attorney Jeff Rosenzweig to the table. 

Representative Carol Dalby Sure. Mr. Rosenswag, if you’ll please–

Representative Karilyn Brown We’ll try to move through this as quickly as we can. I do have quite a few witnesses. 

Representative Carol Dalby For each of the witnesses, because I know some of you may not have testified before, just when you get to the table, if you’ll push the button and identify yourself for the record. And then  go ahead and proceed with whatever testimony you wish to present. Representative Brown, you’re recognized. 

Study on right of parents to medical records

Representative Karilyn Brown Thank you. Madam Chair, the primary objective with the amendment to Quincy’s Law was to allow parents to receive the medical records they need to get their second opinion. And I have attorney Rosenzweig here who can speak to that issue. 

Jeff Rosenzweig Jeff Rosenzweig. I’m a criminal defense lawyer in Little Rock, and I also represent the Arkansas Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. This bill or this proposal to strengthen Quincy’s law is necessary. I have run into my practice in cases I’ve had, a lot of essentially passive aggressive resistance to getting important and necessary medical records from health care providers, particularly, but not exclusively, Arkansas Children’s Hospital. And I’ve had to go to court to the judges multiple times to get the entire corpus of records coughed up, essentially. 

And this bill, if and when it passes, would be an additional impetus to getting all the records. For instance, give you an example, last year or in the past couple of years, I had a client who was accused of causing a brain injury to his daughter. And Children’s Hospital had made this claim. And Children’s Hospital had endorsed it. Well, the child had been in Children’s Hospital for six months prior. In fact, was taken there immediately after birth and had had surgeries. And we needed the records. 

They had a brain scan at the time my client was charged and said this is the brain injury. Well, it took three separate interventions by the court to get the scan from them after the surgery, which was done and which was absolutely identical. And the charges ended up being dropped. That’s an example of what we have. 

For instance, with Children’s Hospital, you have to go back several times, my experience has been. For instance, that the records in an outpatient clinic at Children’s are not within the hospital records that are provided to DHS, provided to everyone. Why they keep them separate, I don’t know. But that is a problem. And you just have to continue to force the issue. Well, I’ve been around long enough that I know how to deal with the problem. But a younger lawyer or someone who hasn’t had the number of issues or takes their assertions at face value is going to cause a problem. 

And I’ve had other cases over the years where this has been a problem. I had one, there’s a reference in the bill to Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. I had a client who was charged with battery on his girlfriend’s son, who was several years old. He said that he had just tripped and fallen. A six inch fall on an Ehlers-Danlos child is like a six foot fall somewhere else. Well, as it turns out, the mother had Ehlers-Danlos. So what are the chances that the child is going to have Ehlers-Danlos. And it took and finally got them to do the genetic testing. And the case went away at that point. 

And so I can give you other other examples. But anything that allows appropriate medical testing and gets access to the results is going to be commended and should be endorsed by this panel and by the legislature as a whole. We’re talking about possible criminal charges. There’s going to be the dependency neglect and the possible revocation of parental rights, certainly custody issues, people put on the child maltreatment registry improperly for no good reason or mistakenly. And so I’m happy to answer any questions anyone may have. 

Representative Carol Dalby Members, are there any questions? Seeing no questions, thank you, Mr. Rosenzweig. It’s always good to see you. 

Representative Karilyn Brown Thank you, Madam Chair. I’d like to bring Dr. Thomas Lowder, Dr. Rachel Cote, and Dr. Cole to the table, please. 

Representative Carol Dalby Let’s see, we might need to get another chair. I’ll get one. Emily, can you get her a chair? An extra chair. Oh, wait a minute. Okay, I miscounted. We’ve got them. I was still counting Mr. Rosenzweig as being there. So I think we’re good. 

Representative Karilyn Brown  I forgot Andrea Taylor. Andrea. 

Representative Carol Dalby  I think the best way to handle this, Representative Brown, is whoever’s going to testify first, we will let them identify themselves and then testify. But before you ever speak, please make sure you identify yourself for the record. All right. Thank you. You’re on. 

Thomas Lowder Thomas Lowder, L-o-w-d-e-r, PhD. I am a research scientist. I am not a physician. I’m going to speak about Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and some of the connective tissue disorders and how they affect people, primarily children. I’ll defer all the medical questions to Dr. Cole. She is an expert in this. 

So the Ehlers-Danlos Syndromes comprise a rare group of understudied connective tissue disorders. At least 14 known subtypes exist. There will probably be more. There is a large fear of falling, kinesiophobia, postural orthostatic, excuse me, tachycardia syndrome or POTS, mast cell activation syndrome. Pelvic floor dysfunction and genito-urinary incontinence and prolapse, both vaginally and rectally, are common. Menstrual cycle disregulation, gastrointestinal and eating disorders, and a variety of psychiatric disorders, including depression, anxiety, obsessive compulsive disorder, ADHD, autism, and suicidal ideologies are very common. 

Patients also exhibit very poor balance and proprioception. We studied about 80 patients and we found that none of them can stand up very well. They tend to fall. They tend to run into things. With this, we see muscle and bone weakness. We see a lot of chronic pain, which is probably the number one concern that these patients have. We also see very frequent bruising, and this happens quite easily. These are prominent. We will see patients that will come in and they have bruises up and down their body, and you ask them how they got those, and they can’t tell you. Sometimes they wake up with them. 

In Arkansas, it’s very difficult to receive a medical diagnosis because we have very few specialists who understand any kind of connective tissue disease or disorder. To have a child receive a diagnosis is almost impossible. There are very few places that will diagnose children. For males, the average diagnosis is approximately four to five years. In females, it averages up to about 10 years. I’ve spoken with patients who have waited up to 30 years to get a diagnosis, even though they know what they are looking for. Anyone under the age of 18, it’s very difficult to get a diagnosis. 

Regarding adolescents with children in EDS, these symptoms tend not to improve. They get worse over time. They followed in a study 101 children with hypermobile EDS and found that over time, urinary incontinence, orthostatic intolerance, diarrhea were very highly reported, pain, fatigue, poor postural control. This patient population is very understudied, particularly in children. There are very few therapists who are aware of this disease, and it seems very few physicians. 

We have Dr. Cote here who is a physical therapist. And she has to become educated on EDS because she works with these patient populations, and there’s not a lot out there. She has to get as much help as she can, and she’s trying to get these patients so they can function. If a doctor or a healthcare practitioner has difficulty identifying this disease, it’s almost impossible for somebody who is not trained and knows what to look for in this disease to identify it. 

This is just one of several hundred connective tissue diseases. There are many individuals who will never be diagnosed, and they may never get help. And they can also appear as abuse victims. It’s essential that parents are given any medical information that physicians can find so that they can help them to find their child or children a physician or a diagnosis. And we’re here not to speak about child abuse. 

We’re here to protect patients, and we’re here to make sure that people have every resource available to them. I’ve talked to a number of parents who have had their children taken away because they are told that they are abusing their child and they cannot get a diagnosis for their child. We talk about genetic testing. Ms. Taylor is going to speak about that. For 90% of EDS patient populations, there is no genetic test available. And so what you have to do is an exhaustive panel to try to eliminate every other disease out there so that this may be the one that shows up. 

Representative Karilyn Brown I think one of the critical points that Dr. Lowder brought out in this situation is since most or many adults don’t even know they have this condition, they don’t know to tell their obstetrician when they get pregnant. They don’t anticipate this condition in their child because they don’t even know they have it. 

So some of the witnesses in the audience here have experienced detached retinas, a vomiting disorder, and numerous other conditions that they went to this doctor and that doctor and that doctor, but no one doctor pulled it all together and said, you’ve got EDS or even investigated that possibility. So a lot of adults are walking around in the dark, not knowing what their symptoms mean. And with that, I’d like to turn it over to whichever one of you would like to speak now. 

Andrea Taylor Hi, my name is Andrea Taylor. I am the founding president of a nonprofit for arterial tortuosity syndrome called the Twist of Fate ATS. I did not wake up one morning and decide that I want to be a global expert in arterial tortuosity syndrome, but my son was diagnosed in 2010 here at Arkansas Children’s. Because of Aiden’s rarity, he is one in a million. ATS is very similar to Cutis Laxa, EDS, vascular Ehlers-Danlos, Marfans. And because of my global advocacy and the nonprofit to help every patient have access to genetic testing, I started– 

Representative Carol Dalby Ms. Taylor, if you can get a little closer to the microphone. 

Andrea Taylor Do you want me to start over? 

Representative Carol Dalby No, I think most of them– but we just got a notice that somebody up here couldn’t hear you. So if you’ll just get a little closer, I think. Thank you. 

Andrea Taylor So I became a global leader advocating for patients to have better access to genetic testing and ended up working in the genetic testing industry starting in 2018. I am an expert in ATS and I help write the medical journal articles that change the clinical guidelines for the condition. And therefore I work with many of the other connective tissue disorders to learn, collaborate, and help grow awareness. 

These connective tissue disorders, it’s not just EDS, it’s all of them. Our children have very odd immune responses to falls, to, like, for example, my son fell at the YMCA in Oklahoma, bumped his head, and we had a goose egg that came out about two inches and was about the size of a small baseball. And so he required a CT. But we were questioned very heavily about what happened in that incident. We can’t help what happens as a body response with these conditions. 

Your connective tissue is very loose and rigid, and so your immune responses can be quite exaggerated with these conditions. Same thing happened when Aidan fell and broke his arm. He and his brother were playing on a little bicycle on a carpeted floor. And the next thing we know they flipped and Aidan had a broken arm. And the same thing, we were questioned very, very rigorously. And I’m glad that that protection is in place for children that are abused. 

But because of the connective tissue disorder, it is often parents that are very innocent and just trying to get care for their children are often made feel like they’ve done something wrong by bringing their children to the emergency room or to get care. There is access, like Dr. Lowder said, to genetic testing. Usually those patients would undergo extensive testing, such as whole exome or whole genome sequencing, which can be a great cost to families. T

here’s a lot of labs that can create good financial assistance policies for these families. But here in Arkansas, we have a hard time with Arkansas Medicaid covering whole exome and whole genome. And so we need to do a better job as a state to make sure that those funds are available for every patient that is needing genetic testing. Thank you. 

Cassandra Cole My name’s Cassandra Cole. I’m an ER physician and so I kind of have been a unique intersection. I also have hypermobile EDS and actually only got diagnosed a year ago.  

Representative Carol Dalby Get a little closer. Yeah. Pull the microphone. You can pull it toward you a little bit. There you go. Thank you. 

Cassandra Cole My name’s Cassandra Cole. I’m an ER physician, so I’m an MD. And so I kind of have a unique intersection. So I’ve taken care of plenty of patients, unfortunately, in the state of Arkansas– I have ended up on court stands– that have been maltreated. And so I’m very thankful that that system exists. But also uniquely, we are even taught in medical school, like, there’s something called Mongolian spots. So they’re discolorations that appear as bruises that normally people of color will have more frequently.

 And so we are taught to make sure you document that in the chart to make sure that if another clinician later on says, hey, this kid’s getting abused, make sure they don’t get falsely abused. So we are also taught in medicine to make sure to protect those patients to know these things exist. But we are really not taught a ton about connective tissue disorders. We were taught that they were rare, but they are not rare. You’re actually more likely to have a rare disorder because there are so many of them than you are to have type 1 diabetes. 

So I actually have hypermobile EDS. I got COVID and ended up manifesting a lot of different complications from that, which were all, I guess, grounded in the fact that I had hypermobile EDS and did not know. So I made it through almost 40 years of life, medical school and residency, and the complications that go along with HEDS that in hindsight makes sense without knowing that. And so if I can do that as a highly educated professional that is taking care of these patients, that is very easy for someone else to do. 

And again, I am so thankful for the protections we have. Because I said, like I have, found kids that are getting abused. I have had to report to the system. I have had to sit up on the stand and be a witness that’s saying, yes, this is, an injury that generally goes along with maltreatment. But that being said, people that have genetic disorders or connective tissue disorders, if you think about it, their building blocks are not normal. 

So things that we were taught that were saying, hey, if you have this injury, there’s no other way besides the fact that you were abused. But if your building blocks aren’t normal, you are going to respond differently to different forces. So different bruising patterns. You’re more likely to have bleeding, abnormal bruising, rashes. So some kids have something called MCAS. So MCAS are like your mast cells that cause allergic reaction. Lots of us have had hives or even like a reaction to a bug bite. 

But some of those kids can get that even from just picking up. So you just pick up the baby off the table and you put it down and all of a sudden they have red finger marks on them. It wasn’t abuse. It was the fact that their skin is literally acting to the fact that it’s just getting touched. They’re more likely to bruise. They’re more likely to have abnormal fractures. And also they’re more likely to have neurodivergence. 

We’re starting to realize that that is probably more of a neuroconnective disorder, and they all go along together. So then you have children that are going to react a little bit differently, even in their interactions with healthcare and their families and their parents. And so I really support what Senator Brown is doing. I think everyone needs to be able to have access to these charts so we can have the most people looking up to make sure we’re getting the best care for these patients because the parents need to be able to advocate for them. 

And everyone taking care of these patients needs to have access to make sure that, one, we are taking care of these patients that truly are getting abused. And we need to make sure that they are safe. But also we need to make sure because there is harm in taking kids out of their families that don’t belong out of their families and causing generational harm, but also fear of the healthcare system. And we don’t want people being afraid of us. We need to be the protectors of the patients when they come in. And they need to feel safe being able to come to us. 

Representative Karilyn Brown Thank you, Doctor. I’ve got Cole and Cote here today. This is Dr. Cole. Thank you all very much. I would like to bring some of the parents up now to speak. Oh wait, I need to–. 

Representative Carol Dalby You have one other witness. 

Representative Karilyn Brown I have one other witness. I do. Sorry. 

Rachel Cote Okay. Hi, good morning. My name is Rachel, DPT. I’m a physical therapist, Rachel Cote, C-o-t-e. So I wasn’t taught EDS in school. The only reason why I knew of EDS is because my neighbor had EDS. She was going through MD PhD program. She struggled a lot. She had three babies already, and her body was very different from an average mother postpartum. So I would go in pro bono and help her get stronger and all of that. 

But even starting to work as a physical therapist, I would come across patients with EDS diagnosis, but it was unsuccessful. So then that’s when I started reaching out to Dr. Lowder and started learning more about it. And now hopefully people with EDS feel comfortable coming to see me for physical therapy. So I’m here to talk about my perspective of people with connective tissue disorder and hypermobility spectrum disorder, of course, including EDS and other connective tissue disorders. 

This population, as a physical therapist, I hate to say people have fragile bodies. I hate to say that. So I would like to say their response to the environment is very different. So like many of us here already said, the bruising, the MAC response, the dislocation of limbs, things like that happen so commonly. There are even stories of people getting in the bed, pulling the bed sheet over their legs and their ankle dislocating just from that minor pressure to the leg. So in physical therapy, I work with strengthening. But of course, they don’t respond to regular strengthening regimen. No three sets of ten, no three times a week. It has to have a different approach. 

They have terrible proprioception that Dr. Lowder mentioned. The definition of proprioception is your position sense of the limbs in the space. If you don’t have that because of the connected tissue disorder and your nerve wiring is very different from an average person, then you’re more likely to sprain your ankle really badly, not being able to close your eyes in the bathroom, or when you’re washing your hair, all of that. So in physical therapy, that’s something that we work on too. 

But I would also like to bring up that the first thing I do when I see them is sit down and do history taking. And so I totally acknowledge that they already get accused of so many different things, even malingering. And so that’s why I wanted to be here and be supportive of this bill. Because first of all, the family needs as much support as they can. And that includes proper care for the child and being able to seek medical treatments. So if you have any questions, I’m also here to answer any questions. 

Representative Carol Dalby Representative Collins, you’re recognized for a question. 

Representative Andrew Collins Thank you, Madam Chair. And I’m not sure exactly who is best to answer this, but probably somebody up there. So I think that I understand what you guys are saying about these disorders and situations. And of course, I think everybody probably doesn’t want situations like that to be resulting in false accusations or misunderstandings of child abuse. And I understand that’s exactly what you’re trying to do with this interim study proposal. 

I think that my question really comes from the other side of the coin. So and I’m talking now specifically about section three about the access to the medical records. So can you guys imagine for me a situation where there’s an accused abuser who in fact is an abuser? 

And first, why would they be denied access to medical records typically? Is that at the discretion of the hospital or the healthcare provider? Because I’m not an expert in this, but my understanding is that typically parents do have access to a child’s medical records. So in what situation, just for starters, would they not have access to the child’s medical records? 

Representative Karilyn Brown I’d like to answer that question. We really don’t know why parents aren’t– the Arkansas Children’s Hospital is the only hospital or the facility I have learned of that denies the medical records. 

And I had a conversation with Tiffany Wright with DCFS yesterday and I was informed that if any other constituents came to me and said they could not get the medical records from Arkansas Children’s Hospital to let them know any time of the day or night and they would make sure that the person received their child’s medical records, provided they had not had their parental rights taken away. And so that’s the big question. 

Why are parents being denied access to their child’s medical records? And why, when the records are turned over to DCFS or to the parents, are they not getting the complete record? That’s the big concern here. 

Representative Andrew Collins So do they already have that right under law to get access to the medical records? Or is it a matter of discretion for Children’s or other hospitals? 

Representative Karilyn Brown Well, that’s part of what I want to cover in this study. That’s why I want to go deeper into this. But according to HIPAA, parents have the right to their child’s medical records because they are the custodian. They’re the caregiver for that child. So they have the right to the child’s medical records. 

I know that there are some situations that we might need to look at where a judge might say they can’t have the medical records. But if the judge has not said they cannot have them, there is no reason for Children’s not to turn them over. Now there are situations– you’re the attorney. You’ll know the word. It’s when you get something and only the judge sees it or the judge sees it first. I forget the word. Anyway, but let’s say there are sensitive visual graphics, then there’s controls that can be put on that where those records then are viewed by the judge before they go to the parents. 

Representative Andrew Collins Okay, and just one more follow up, if I may. So if you’re saying that currently law provides the parent with access to those records, that they have to be turned over by the hospital, then I guess why are we having section three saying that they have to turn them over if that’s already the law? 

Representative Karilyn Brown Well, it’s not in statute. I believe, though, that it is every parent’s constitutional right to have their child’s medical records. But it’s not in statute and it’s not being enforced. 

Representative Andrew Collins Thanks.

Representative Carol Dalby Seeing no other questions and you’ve got about eight minutes, so how do you wish to–? 

Representative Karilyn Brown I want to hear a little bit from some people who’ve actually– some parents. I have a couple of emails from one mother, and then I have three parents in the audience. And I would like for Sarah and Shaylin and Shelly. Shelley, Shaylin, and Sarah to come up. Three S’s. That’s a tongue twister. But while they’re coming up, I would like to read an email that I received from one of Representative Nick Burke’s constituents. 

She wrote me in July. And I don’t know that I ever responded to her because sometimes our inboxes get so full. But when I searched for her name yesterday, I saw this July email. So I want to read it to you. I’m not going to say her name because I don’t know that it’s okay with her. 

Anyhow, on July 19, 2024, my husband and I brought our 10-day old daughter to Arkansas Children’s Hospital in Springdale due to a fever. 10 day old daughter. She was quickly diagnosed with E. Coli sepsis and decompensated into septic shock while awaiting admission. In the emergency setting, she underwent a lumbar puncture, liver ultrasound, head CT, and multiple x rays, all of which were normal at the time. Due to the severity of her condition, she was airlifted to Children’s in Little Rock for higher level care. 

The following day she required an emergency laparotomy as the infection had severely impacted her intestines. The day after surgery, a follow-up CT scan reportedly showed rib fractures and a liver laceration, and we were abruptly reported to child protective services. Within 48 hours and without any physical evidence or full investigation, my husband was arrested solely on a statement from Dr. Liza Murray, a child abuse pediatrician who claimed the findings were diagnostic of non-accidental trauma. 

This nightmare unfolded despite critical facts. No fractures or liver injury were present on admission. The initial liver ultrasound was completely normal. The alleged liver laceration appeared only after surgery, which has been reviewed and described by medical experts as consistent with surgical lifting injury, not abuse. 

Dr. David Ayub, a well-known radiologist and medical expert, reviewed the imaging and confirmed our daughter had rechitic rosary, a clinical finding often misinterpreted as rib fractures with vitamin D deficient infants, and which explains the radiologic findings without implicating abuse. 

Thanks to the support of Michelle Weidner of the Family Justice Resource Center, we have been able to coordinate a medically supported fact-based defense rooted in current pediatric radiology and metabolic science. Despite this, we continue to face the trauma of false criminal charges against my husband while we parent our daughters under a cloud of suspicion that has no medical foundation. 

Tragically, since coming forward, I have connected with at least four other mothers in Northwest Arkansas who report nearly identical experiences, rushed abuse diagnoses, medically unsupported conclusions, and devastating consequences for loving, attentive families. These are not isolated incidents. They reflect a broader systemic failure to properly investigate complex medical presentations before alleging criminal conduct. Representative Brown, I am begging for your help. 

Representative Carol Dalby Representative Brown, I think we get the gist of it. I’m not trying to cut you off, but you’ve got three other folks. They’re citizens that want to say something. And you’ve got four minutes. Okay. 

Representative Karilyn Brown Can you all be brief and tell about your experiences with not being able to receive your medical records from Children’s Hospital? And introduce yourself.

Shelly Humphrey I’m Shelly Humphrey. December of 2022, our son was taken from us. We were falsely accused of abuse. When we went down to Children’s to get the records, we were denied the records when we asked for them. 

Sarah Culp I’m Sarah Culp. I’m the mother of Quincy Culp. We went to Children’s Hospital in March of 2018. My husband was accused of the alleged abuse and was arrested that very day, even before the doctor had actually seen him to anywhere near diagnose him. While I have never been denied the medical records, my husband was repeatedly, even after he was home and still had custody of our son. 

Shalin Jennings My name is Shalinn Jennings. However, my birth name is Loryl Jennings, L-o-r-y-l. I have received my daughter’s medical records. But however, I know I did not receive all of her medical records, especially her ER medical records. She has a lot of mental health medical records and she’s been in their psych ward multiple times. I know a lot of her medical records are locked and they will not let me have them. My daughter is diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos hypermobility. 

She was diagnosed in Washington State. We moved here in 2022. She has many notes in her medical records that are lies, stating that CPS was called on me in 2022 for living in our camper while we were waiting for our house to be finalized when we moved here, and that was a lie. However, CPS was called on me in last year of 2024, stating that I have Munchausen syndrome bypoxy. 

They compared me to Gypsy Rose Blanchard, if you know who that is in social media, for killing her mom. And they stated that I am making up every single one of my daughter’s medical records and forcing Children’s Hospital to give me false letters for her IEP. My daughter is diagnosed with over 20 diagnoses under the EDS umbrella. And I believe that Beebe School District is the one who reported me to CPS. 

And I’ve been reported twice now. The first one was just for my teenage daughter. The second one was for my teenage daughter and my six-year-old daughter, stating that I starve my children because my teenage daughter is now again under 100 pounds. Obviously, I don’t weigh that much either. But my teenage daughter has a lot of mental health issues. But the biggest problem is my daughter has epilepsy and she also has narcolepsy. I have narcolepsy as well. 

And my daughter takes Topamax as well as Adderall, both are weight loss symptoms due to the medication. And somebody stated that I was starving her. I do not starve my children. I feed them very, very well with very yummy looking food. And she just can’t handle eating enough. And she also has Crohn’s disease, so that doesn’t help her situation either. I was reported to CPS in Colorado when my daughter was first born because she had failure to thrive from birth to four years old. I’ve been struggling with my daughter’s health since she was born, and it’s been a struggle. 

Representative Carol Dalby Ma’am, let me let me stop you right there because we recognize there’s a long history obviously there and maybe with others. I think the question is, have you been able to get your records from Arkansas Children’s? And I think you stated most of them, but maybe not the psych part of it. Is that correct? 

Shalin Jennings There is many records that I have not received in all over Children’s. 

Representative Carol Dalby Okay. All right. Thank you. Ladies, thank you very much for coming to the committee meeting this morning. We appreciate any time Arkansans come to testify before us. Representative Brown, we’re at the stopping point, but I’ll give you a little bit of time to close for your ISP. 

Representative Karilyn Brown Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to continue to pursue this and probably modify my 2025 legislation, but I would like to work with DCFS and the professionals and the families that were here today and see if we can’t craft something that’s more workable and address the problem that we’re having at Children’s Hospital. 

Representative Carol Dalby Members, the explanation of ISP 2025-041. What’s the wishes of the committee? Is there a motion to adopt? Representative Beaty, do you have a question or a comment? You’re recognized. 

Representative Howard Beaty Thank you, Madam Chair. I do have a a question. Where is DHS? 

Representative Karilyn Brown They’re not here today. 

Representative Howard Beaty Did you invite them to come to this meeting? 

Representative Karilyn Brown No, I did not. But I met with them yesterday. And Representative Mary Bentley has an ISP, and she and I may join forces and combine our ISPs or separate them somewhat. But we’re in consultation with DHS. 

Representative Howard Beaty Okay, because we spent a lot of time yesterday in committee going over very related issues along these lines. Something else that kind of causes me a little pause is the fact that DHS told you, next time you have a parent that can’t get their records from Children’s that they could work with them to get those records. 

I mean, I may be wrong and members of this committee may disagree with me. But why do we need a state agency getting involved to get records the hospital according to law should be providing to our citizens? Sounds like maybe we need someone else, maybe the Attorney General or someone to get involved in that to get these records for our citizens. Would you agree? 

Representative Karilyn Brown I would agree. And I’d be glad to speak with the Attorney General. 

Representative Howard Beaty I would encourage you to do that. Thank you. I think that would be better. But I think DHS should have been here today. This is along the same lines as what we sat through yesterday. 

Representative Karilyn Brown We did not address the inability to get medical records though, so I wanted to continue. Thank you. 

Representative Carol Dalby And Representative Brown, this is a bill that you’ve brought before the legislature before in several years past, before Aging Children and Youth and then before Judiciary. Isn’t that true?

Representative Karilyn Brown  I did not bring it last year. I pulled it down because I could see I was having opposition with the prosecuting attorneys and the prosecuting– I believe it was the prosecuting attorney, who, I’ll be nice, someone whispered in the ears of the committee members and told them that my legislation would allow sexual predators to have access to sensitive photos to publish them on social media. And although I did get some positive votes out of committee, it did not pass out of committee. And I think it was because of that frightening information. 

Representative Carol Dalby And this has been before Aging, Children and Youth also, correct?

Representative Karilyn Brown Aging Children and Youth in 2023, but I did not present it in 2025. 

Representative Carol Dalby All right, members. Oh, Representative Collins. 

Representative Andrew Collins Just a quick clarification. So what is the significance of the vote? This is our first interim study. 

Representative Carol Dalby All it’s going to do would be to allow Representative Brown to continue to research this issue, which I think she can do even without a vote. I mean, that’s what it does. It’s not giving approval of the bill or anything like that because we don’t take those kind of votes at interim. 

It’s just so she can say she has an interim study and wants to go ahead and continue. All right. Any other discussion or questions? What’s the will of the committee? I have a motion. Any discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion to adopt ISP 2025-041. Please say aye. Any opposed, say no. The ayes have it. The adoption has been granted. 

Representative Karilyn Brown Thank you, committee. 

Representative Carol Dalby All right, members. Next up we have consideration for adoption ISP 2025-045 by Representative Richardson. Representative Brown, is there a sign-in sheet there at that table? Would you get those ladies that just came and testified to sign in? We didn’t have them on our agenda. Just for our record. Thank you. I appreciate that. Representative Richardson, identify yourself and you’re recognized to present your ISP. 

Study on restoring 2nd Amendment rights

Representative Scott Richardson Thank you, Madam Chair. So I am Scott Richardson, State Representative from District 13, Northwest Arkansas. I’m bringing before the committee the same bill that you guys have seen before. And believe we got a little bit of support out of it, but not quite enough to bring it across the finish line. So I want to continue to work on this bill and attempt to get a bill that we can, at least for the most part, can stomach. 

I realize that this is a contentious issue, and that there will be some members of the committee that probably won’t be able to support no matter what changes we made. But I think that there’s enough room within this particular issue that we can find a common ground to move forward to help out these individuals. 

And I’ll start my conversation with some of the challenges that we ran into during session as I present. This bill specifically is intended to create a, if you will, a subclass of felons that have the right to retain– or I should say– have restored their protections for firearms. Specifically, we’re looking at individuals that are nonviolent, that are not a threat to society and have validated that they’re not a threat to society by not only not having committed a violent felony, but also have had a cooling off period in which they have not been convicted of another felony, whether that’s in this state or out. 

Now, some of the challenges that I ran into  when we presented this bill during session included some things– I know the state police were concerned with the bill associated with the updates to, not only our internal database, but also the national database that they rely on when making stops and evaluating whether or not a person has a prior history. We were able to overcome those by being able to update both of those systems in the bill. There was also some conversations around whether or not this was already covered by the governor’s ability to pardon. 

I’ve done a lot of thinking on that particular issue and I kind of want to share my thoughts on it. It is in my opinion and probably, and I think everyone would agree in this committee because we do it all the time,it is the job of the legislative body to determine and to apply an appropriate level of punishment for any particular issue. We do that regularly. And we saw that in the previous session. 

This is my first tour on this particular committee, but we saw at least a couple of bills in which we created or established a specific punishment associated with a particular offense. And we did our best to ensure that that particular punishment fit the crime. I think in this particular case, this bill is requesting to do the exact same thing, in that what is appropriate for the offense against society, what is appropriate for these individuals? 

And I think uniformly applying this idea of suspending rights associated with firearms, but not only firearms, I think you could classify the right to vote even in this one. Although obviously that would be a separate issue and not included in the context of this bill, I think applying that same rule of thumb to this particular group of individuals is–  well, it’s a punishment that I feel personally doesn’t fit the crime and the action. 

These are nonviolent people. Why are we taking their gun rights away from them in the first place? But if we are going to take that step and say that they need to be removed, then fine. What’s the extent of that? How long should that last? This proposal suggests that 10 years after the offense, once they’ve completed their payment to society, whatever fines associated, court cost, whatever jail time might be appropriate, whatever it is. 

These individuals that are included in this particular bill could be anyone that has had maybe a drug charge associated with marijuana, maybe a drug charge for prescription. There are lots of people that make mistakes, get themselves in over their head and become addicted to things that they shouldn’t. They end up having to go through some rehabilitation. They work very hard a lot of times to recover from those events, but the damage is done. Should we continue to restrict that person’s right to have a firearm for the entire life of them when they in fact have returned to what we consider to be societal norms. 

And I think that in this case, I think we can make the argument that that punishment does not fit the particular crime. The other thing that I would suggest is this list that’s in here is– there’s a lot that’s there. And I approached it from– and you can approach it from either direction. You can approach it from, these are the ones we’re going to allow, or these are the ones we’re going to exclude. I took the exclusion. I felt like that was a better approach. 

However, it’s easy to swap that around and do the inclusion. I think that there was some comment about that during session. We were late and just sort of ran out of time and the ability to make any more concessions or changes to that particular element to get it back in front of the committee in time for a vote. So I’m happy to take– and as you guys know at this point, I’m always happy to make adjustments, concessions. 

I feel very firmly that it’s only my bill as long as we don’t vote on it. And then it becomes our bill. And then after that it becomes the House’s and continues forward. So I’m happy to make whatever adjustments the committee feels is necessary. But I do want to point out that I’ve had no less than a hundred phone calls since session ended asking about the status of this bill. It has been the, by far, the number one, I guess, thing that I’ve had people call me on by far. 

And I was kind of surprised by that and didn’t realize there was that many people paying attention. But there are a lot. And I would suggest that most of us, if not once removed, have someone in our circle that this bill could potentially impact or one of their family members would impact. And I think that warrants a continued conversation, continued discussion and for us to find as a legislative body some sort of solution. And with that, I don’t have any witnesses, didn’t bring any, didn’t realize we were actually going to vote on it. But I’m open for any kinds of discussion. 

Representative Carol Dalby Well, we’re not voting on the bill. We’re just voting on continuing the study. Representative Eubanks, you’re recognized for a question. 

Representative Jon Eubanks Thank you, Madam Chair. Representative Richardson, I don’t know if you’ve looked at other states, but I think Florida has a process where people can have their gun rights restored. I actually had a family member in Florida that unfortunately became addicted to drugs 30-plus years ago and has been clean and sober since. 

And I’ve actually written letters to then Florida AG Pam Bondi on his behalf. But they actually do an investigation. But I think there are circumstances where there are people that have unfortunately committed crimes and I think there’s cases where they should possibly be restored their gun rights. So madam chair, I’d make a motion to adopt the ISP. 

Representative Carol Dalby Members, before I take up the motion, is there any other questions or comments? Representative McCullough, you’re recognized. 

Representative Tippi McCullough Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess one of the things that we hear a lot in our committee is that laws are deterrents. And so if a person knows that if they break the law and they commit a felony that they’re going to lose their gun rights, I mean that’s sort of one of those deterrents. Can you speak to that?

Representative Scott Richardson  I think I can. And maybe it’s just based on a lot of my own opinion, but I think also if we do enough research we can discover that the reality is that when we’re talking about things like an inalienable right, like a protection of oneself or use of oneself, it warrants a conversation, I guess, from an overall perspective of whether or not the specific event warrants that ongoing. 

If you have a violent circumstance, absolutely, I can understand why a law like this or a felony like this would leverage the addition of loss of gun rights, right? I can see how that would be a deterrent. But this is a non-violent individual, right? They haven’t committed a violent act against society. 

So leveraging a punishment associated with loss of gun rights and loss of other rights, like necessarily voting, I don’t think is an applicable deterrent for them versus jail time and things of that nature. I’ll also suggest that criminals are going to do criminal things. This particular law that’s on the books, we know already that there are plenty of people out there that still go deer hunting and take up arms even though they’re supposed to not. And so I think the reality is the only people that this particular element is keeping from their firearms is the people that are law abiding. And that’s the people that we probably shouldn’t be punishing. 

Representative Tippi McCullough A quick follow up, Madam Chair. Well, and that is a concern of mine. You bring up a couple of points about that there might be other situations to where we open it up to where we kind of start cherry picking what felonies are okay to do certain things and what felonies are not, which I think maybe sometimes complicates some of the laws that we have. But anyway, that’s my concern.

Representative Scott Richardson Well, just in a quick response to that, I agree. And I’m not a lawyer but that wouldn’t be something that I would want to do. That’s not a level. But our laws are complicated. And I think just as a legislative body we still have a responsibility to establish appropriate punishment for the crime, and I keep coming back to that. Is it appropriate for someone who has not created a circumstance where they’ve been violent to society, is it appropriate for us to permanently remove their gun rights? And I don’t feel that it is. 

Representative Carol Dalby Representative Tosh, you’re recognized for a question. 

Representative Dwight Tosh Eight years of what I refer to as a cleansing period– I can’t remember your terminology, but that’s mine– so is there a reason for that? I was thinking the standard that other states have applied has been 10 years. So I’m just curious why in eight years? 

Representative Scott Richardson Actually, I think you’re looking at, and, remember, it’s been a month or two since I’ve really dove into the writing of this– but the ten years is on a different section. That’s actually specifically associated with the governor’s current rights as a– that’s already in law, in statute. The governor’s right, which is on the previous– if you’re looking at page 3, line 2, that’s associated with the governor’s right to grant pardon. That’s not associated with the 10 years. And the 10 years is on a different page. That is more toward the end. It’s on line 11, page five. 

Representative Dwight Tosh Page five. 

Representative Scott Richardson Yes, sir. And while you’re looking at that, I wanted to respond to Representative Eubanks just quickly. Yes, there are like 28 states, in my research, that currently have the restoration for these things. Fifteen of those states for these types of nonviolent things, 15 of those don’t even take the gun rights away at all. Obviously, if they have to go to prison, they can’t take their guns with them. But they don’t take that right away from them. So this is not new, by any stretch. 

Representative Carol Dalby You good, Representative Tosh? Okay. Any other questions? Seeing no other questions, we do have a motion to adopt the interim study. Any discussion on the adoption of interim study number 2025-045. Seeing no discussion, all in favor, please say aye. Any opposed, say no. The ayes have it. We have adopted. You can continue to study. 

Members, we have come to the conclusion of what we have on our agenda. We do have other business. I want to remind everybody in this room that at 1:30 in the Old Supreme Courtroom over in the Capitol, we have Christmas for the DHS kids. So, please come. Help fill the room. It’s always a great event if you’re new and have never been. So please come. That’s at 1:30 in the Old Supreme Courtroom. Seeing no further business, thank you for your time today. We are adjourned.